Article 1203 of ca.general: Xref: ms ca.general:1203 ba.market.misc:6670 rec.autos:77862 misc.invest:27210 Newsgroups: ca.general,ba.market.misc,rec.autos,misc.invest Path: ms!darwin.sura.net!mips!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!mzimmers From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) Subject: (Repost) The ONLY way to buy a car! Message-ID: <2gql2ca.mzimmers@netcom.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 92 04:43:32 GMT Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) This is a repost necessitated by some net.vandal who cancelled the original post this weekend. I want to pass along what has simply *got* to be the best way to buy a new car/truck. It's run by a not-for-profit group known as Consumers' Checkbook, and it's called Car Bargains. Here's how it works: 1. Call them at 800 475 7283 and give them the make and model of the car you're interested in. At this time you'll also need to square away a payment of $96 to them (this can be done via credit card). 2. Within ten working days, they'll furnish you with bids for a markup commitment from at least five local dealers (in my case they got 11). These bids include the charges for destination, advertising allowance, document fees, and surcharges for getting a car from another lot, or ordering one from the factory. Near as I can see, there are no variables left for them to juke you with. 3. Pick the low bidder, or a near-low bidder who's very close to your home, and visit them. Blow off the salesleaze and ask for the sales manager. Show him the bid for a reminder. 4. Peruse the selections and choose the car that suits your tastes for color and options. This is the beauty of Car Bargains -- because of the markup commitment, all options are yours at dealer cost. 5. Arrange financing or payment and drive off. Car Bargains will also give you some information about your current vehicle's value, as well as what the dealer is likely to offer. They throw in some tips about financing and extended service plans, and in general it's the best $96 a car shopper can spend. No hassle, no garbage from the dealer, and a great price. Because the car I bought is a new body style and very "hot", I paid $1200 over cost. The friend who turned me onto Car Bargains recently got a BMW 325i for $495 over cost, and I suspect that this is a representative figure. For the Bay Area residents, let me throw in a plug for Val Strough Mazda in Seaside. Their sales manager, Mark Brosseau, is a real breath of fresh air -- professional, low pressure, and accomodating. Anyone considering a Honda or Mazda should give him a chance to earn the business (using, of course, the Car Bargains service). Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments. -- Michael Zimmers | Home: 408 996 1984 SoftHelp | Work: 408 996 1965 Software Solutions for Open Systems | Data: 408 996 1974 Article 1206 of ca.general: Xref: ms ca.general:1206 rec.autos:77925 misc.invest:27233 Newsgroups: ca.general,rec.autos,misc.invest Path: ms!darwin.sura.net!mips!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.claremont.edu!euler.claremont.edu!dhosek From: dhosek@euler.claremont.edu Subject: Re: (Repost) The ONLY way to buy a car! Message-ID: <1992Jun23.215830.1@euler.claremont.edu> Lines: 112 Sender: news@muddcs.claremont.edu (The News System) Organization: Harvey Mudd College References: <2gql2ca.mzimmers@netcom.com> Date: 23 Jun 92 21:58:30 PDT In article <2gql2ca.mzimmers@netcom.com>, mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes: > This is a repost necessitated by some net.vandal who cancelled > the original post this weekend. Or perhaps someone who felt that it looked too much like an ad... > I want to pass along what has simply *got* to be the best way to buy > a new car/truck. It's run by a not-for-profit group known as Consumers' > Checkbook, and it's called Car Bargains. Here's how it works: > 1. Call them at 800 475 7283 and give them the make and model of the > car you're interested in. At this time you'll also need to square > away a payment of $96 to them (this can be done via credit card). They're charging you 96 bucks for this service? Doesn't sound so great to me. > 2. Within ten working days, they'll furnish you with bids for a markup > commitment from at least five local dealers (in my case they got 11). > These bids include the charges for destination, advertising allowance, > document fees, and surcharges for getting a car from another lot, or > ordering one from the factory. Near as I can see, there are no > variables left for them to juke you with. Two weeks, an awful long time to wait. > 3. Pick the low bidder, or a near-low bidder who's very close to your home, > and visit them. Blow off the salesleaze and ask for the sales manager. > Show him the bid for a reminder. > 4. Peruse the selections and choose the car that suits your tastes for > color and options. This is the beauty of Car Bargains -- because of > the markup commitment, all options are yours at dealer cost. > 5. Arrange financing or payment and drive off. > Car Bargains will also give you some information about your current > vehicle's value, as well as what the dealer is likely to offer. They > throw in some tips about financing and extended service plans, and in > general it's the best $96 a car shopper can spend. No hassle, no garbage > from the dealer, and a great price. Because the car I bought is a new > body style and very "hot", I paid $1200 over cost. The friend who > turned me onto Car Bargains recently got a BMW 325i for $495 over cost, > and I suspect that this is a representative figure. > For the Bay Area residents, let me throw in a plug for Val Strough Mazda > in Seaside. Their sales manager, Mark Brosseau, is a real breath of > fresh air -- professional, low pressure, and accomodating. Anyone > considering a Honda or Mazda should give him a chance to earn the > business (using, of course, the Car Bargains service). Let me offer an alternative way which is probably better: Check with you local AAA, membership warehouse, credit union, etc. to see if they have a program where you can deal with fleet managers (Auto Club of So Cal and Pace Membership Warehouse both offer the service). If you aren't a member of the appropriate group, joining is likely to be less than $96 and will carry other benefits (e.g., emergency road service, the priviledge to buy salsa by the gallon). If you don't have access to an org which can give you a referral, don't sweat it... I doubt that any fleet manager would turn away your business. Before you get the referral slips, find out what kind of car you want. Read Consumer Reports or whatever other sources of information you can get a hold of. Stop by the appropriate dealership(s) and get the glossy brochure. This is useful if only to give you some idea of what the options and colors are. Decide what you want from this, but be flexible. (E.g., I wanted a silver Miata with ABS. There was none to be had so I settled for white.) Now, go to AAA, Pace, wherever and get the dealer referral. They'll give you somewhere between 1 and 5 depending on who they are but you can always go back for more. Referrals have expiration dates but I've never seen anyone care. You'll contact the dealership yourself and talk to the fleet manager. Tell him or her (a little under half of the fleet managers I talked to were female... a much better fraction than you'll see walking the floor) what you want and they'll be able to give you prices over the phone (some may want you to come in for the price, although generally it's more likely they don't want to deal with you in person until you're ready to commit to a purchase). The price quotes I got were the invoice price plus markup plus taxes etc. Thus it was easy to tell who had the best price since I knew exactly what the markup was. And yes, options are at invoice price. Next thing. If the car you want isn't on the lot, the fleet manager will try to find one for you. In the case of my silver Miata, I had a manager searching computer records for two weeks. She finally found one on a boat, but I couldn't afford to wait for it to clear customs and there was no guarantee that it wasn't already spoken for. Another hint. Get financing through your bank/credit union. You will almost always get a better interest rate (especially if you belong to a credit union) than you would through the dealer. Be sure to let the fleet manager know that you have your own financing. (Note: The one place where dealer financing can beat the bank--but only in the short term--is in arranging a loan when you can't make a big enough down payment.) End result: I paid four or five hundred (I forget which) over invoice on a 92 Miata in February. Is it possible to do better? Yes. I could probably have cut that down to 300 over talking to the sleaze on the floor and the manager, but it was worth a couple hundred bucks to me just to avoid dealing with them. -dh Article 1209 of ca.general: Xref: ms ca.general:1209 rec.autos:78002 misc.invest:27261 Newsgroups: ca.general,rec.autos,misc.invest Path: ms!darwin.sura.net!mips!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!mzimmers From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) Subject: Re: (Repost) The ONLY way to buy a car! Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Jun 92 20:57:53 GMT Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) References: <2gql2ca.mzimmers@netcom.com> <1992Jun23.215830.1@euler.claremont.edu> Lines: 120 In article <1992Jun23.215830.1@euler.claremont.edu> dhosek@euler.claremont.edu writes: >In article <2gql2ca.mzimmers@netcom.com>, mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes: >> This is a repost necessitated by some net.vandal who cancelled >> the original post this weekend. >Or perhaps someone who felt that it looked too much like an ad... There must have been quite a few posts looking like ads last Sunday. There was a long list of victims. I guess to avoid any further innuendo such as this, I ought to make the obligatory disclaimer that "I have no pecuniary interest in Car Bargains or Consumer Checkbook other than I want them to still be around when I make my next purchase." Nuff said? >> I want to pass along what has simply *got* to be the best way to buy >> a new car/truck. It's run by a not-for-profit group known as Consumers' >> Checkbook, and it's called Car Bargains. Here's how it works: >> >> 1. Call them at 800 475 7283 and give them the make and model of the >> car you're interested in. At this time you'll also need to square >> away a payment of $96 to them (this can be done via credit card). >They're charging you 96 bucks for this service? Doesn't sound so >great to me. Open your mind up a bit. They got me a bid for $700 less than the best deal I could strike with a leasing broker or a fleet manager. >> 2. Within ten working days, they'll furnish you with bids for a markup >> commitment from at least five local dealers (in my case they got 11). >> These bids include the charges for destination, advertising allowance, >> document fees, and surcharges for getting a car from another lot, or >> ordering one from the factory. Near as I can see, there are no >> variables left for them to juke you with. >Two weeks, an awful long time to wait. In my case it was actually six working days. If you've planned ahead and aren't desperate for a new car (which is the wrong position to be in to drive a bargain) an extra week or two isn't a big deal. >Let me offer an alternative way which is probably better: Check >with you local AAA, membership warehouse, credit union, etc. to >see if they have a program where you can deal with fleet managers >(Auto Club of So Cal and Pace Membership Warehouse both offer the >service). If you aren't a member of the appropriate group, >joining is likely to be less than $96 and will carry other >benefits (e.g., emergency road service, the priviledge to buy >salsa by the gallon). If you don't have access to an org which >can give you a referral, don't sweat it... I doubt that any fleet >manager would turn away your business. I don't see how this approach is "better". You have no basis for knowing whether you can come within $100 of CB's price acting on your own. I, on the other hand, have concrete evidence that CB saved me over $600. >Before you get the referral slips, find out what kind of car you >want. Read Consumer Reports or whatever other sources of >information you can get a hold of. Stop by the appropriate >dealership(s) and get the glossy brochure. This is useful if only >to give you some idea of what the options and colors are. Decide >what you want from this, but be flexible. (E.g., I wanted a >silver Miata with ABS. There was none to be had so I settled for >white.) This might be avoidable via CB. In order to keep my post size down, I omitted a detail that the bids include the dealer's charge to get a model with the desired color and options from another dealer, and the charge to order from the factory. In the case of the dealer whom I selected, both services were offered at no additional charge. >You'll contact the dealership yourself and talk to the fleet >manager. Tell him or her (a little under half of the fleet >managers I talked to were female... a much better fraction than >you'll see walking the floor) what you want and they'll be able >to give you prices over the phone (some may want you to come in >for the price, although generally it's more likely they don't >want to deal with you in person until you're ready to commit to a >purchase). The price quotes I got were the invoice price plus >markup plus taxes etc. Thus it was easy to tell who had the best >price since I knew exactly what the markup was. And yes, options >are at invoice price. The edge that CB gives you is that they *inform* the dealer that they are participating in a competitive bid process. This would seem to give the dealers a bit more incentive to become reasonable. >End result: I paid four or five hundred (I forget which) over >invoice on a 92 Miata in February. Is it possible to do better? So you paid about the same markup on a $14,000 car that my friend using CB paid on a $25,000 car. I wish we had more data points, but my suspicion is that that $96 more than pays for itself in most cases. I flat-out *know* it did in my case. >Yes. I could probably have cut that down to 300 over talking to >the sleaze on the floor and the manager, but it was worth a >couple hundred bucks to me just to avoid dealing with them. Amen. Another thing I liked about CB was the on-paper comparison of nearly a dozen Mazda dealers. I found who was the more competitive (turned out to be those further from the Bay Area), who were the more stubborn (Almaden Mazda did a no-bid) and who were the jerks (Glen Rieken of Oak Tree Mazda in SJ told CB to "go to hell". I've met him and he's a real jerk.) Anyway, there appear to be two ways here to buy a car. I can't say that using CB is better than going to a fleet dealer directly, but it sure was in my case. Perhaps anyone using the service will be kind enough to volunteer their data point as well? -- Michael Zimmers | Home: 408 996 1984 SoftHelp | Work: 408 996 1965 Software Solutions for Open Systems | Data: 408 996 1974 Article 1211 of ca.general: Xref: ms ca.general:1211 ba.market.misc:6685 rec.autos:78006 misc.consumers:53705 Newsgroups: ca.general,ba.market.misc,rec.autos,misc.consumers Path: ms!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!mork!mzimmers From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) Subject: Re: (Repost) The ONLY way to buy a car! Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Jun 92 21:33:20 GMT Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) References: <2gql2ca.mzimmers@netcom.com> <920623.115177706@lacan.postmodern.com> Lines: 89 In article <920623.115177706@lacan.postmodern.com> mcb@lacan.postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) writes: >In the referenced article, mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes: >> I want to pass along what has simply *got* to be the best way to buy >> a new car/truck. It's run by a not-for-profit group known as Consumers' >> Checkbook, and it's called Car Bargains. Here's how it works: >Seems somewhat reasonable, but I have a few questions/problems regarding this: > >1. How does this compare, final-price-wise, with other methods of >obtaining a low price on a car (dealing with brokers, putting in bids >at dealerships, negotiating with the so-called "fleet manager")? Is >there empirical evidence that this yields a better price? Yes and no. The only time I spoke with a broker, he told me that his fee was $500. Compared to the $495 markup my friend got on a Bimmer (I'm reluctant to use my experience as a representative example since the '93 RX-7 is in such short supply), that doesn't leave much room for dealer profit. Also, if my experience was representative, a broker will ask you for make and model, color, options, etc., THEN get a price on a specific vehicle. With CB, you get them to commit to a fixed markup for ANY vehicle of the correct model on the lot. Options are had at cost, and more importantly, you get the "pick of the litter". Doing your own bidding at the dealer is an interesting idea, but it violates a fundamental axiom of negotiation: he who first brings up prices, loses. Plus, unless the dealer knows that you're not a typical buyer, he'll likely stick closer to his asking prices, though he'll definitely do something for you. Going to fleet managers is OK provided that they're willing to work with you, but all you've done here is strip away that first level of profit. The tough part is still in front of you: you've got to get around the inherent disadvantage of dealing with one dealer at a time. This IMHO is what makes CB so effective. >2. You still have to deal with a salesperson/sales manager at the >dealership, who gets to try to squeeze a few more bucks out of you, or >switch cars, or explain, "Oh...that agreement doesn't apply to >," or "Oh, we don't have any unsold but >maybe we can find one for you...of course, it won't be at that special price." See above. The bid specifically states that it applies to *any* vehicle matching the stated make and model. They cannot set you up for a bait-and-switch. (Remember that CB is run by professional consumerists, and that they most assuredly anticipated such games when they designed their program. There is a bit of an exception to this: one of the 11 dealers who bid for my business quoted different rates for automatic vs. 5-speed, and stated in the bid that blue was not available (for some weird reason, blue is a hot color for this car). But the dealer was smart enough to be up-front about this -- he's no doubt aware that CB monitors its program and will cease soliciting bids from dealers who try to play games. >3. I don't mind paying them $96 for this service, but you're not >buying a deal, you're buying a hunting license. If you can't make a >deal with any of the dealers, you're out the $96. (Is it refundable >in that case?) I would be glad to pay the $96 as part of the deal, >just as I don't mind paying a broker's built-in fee of $100-150 per >car. Same finder's fee, but at least with the broker you don't have >top pay unless they find you a car. I guess I haven't explained the program very well. There is no "deal to make" with the dealer. That's what the bid is, and it's signed and binding for a fixed period of time. Once you get the paperwork, there is NO more room for discussion of price. The only way the dealer is gonna get more money from you is through: o financing (CB gives a page of advice on this) o extended service contracts (ditto) o accessories (ditto) This is the beauty of the program: the dealer is forced into making a bona fide and binding offer to you. None of the "if I could do this, would you buy today?" crap. Another thought: while I can't prove it, I suspect that some brokers don't really push the dealer to get the best price for you, since the dealers are almost business partners rather than friendly adversaries. CB is totally on your side. -- Michael Zimmers | Home: 408 996 1984 SoftHelp | Work: 408 996 1965 Software Solutions for Open Systems | Data: 408 996 1974 Article 1214 of ca.general: Xref: ms ca.general:1214 rec.autos:78164 misc.invest:27295 Path: ms!darwin.sura.net!gatech!ncar!noao!arizona!arizona.edu!cerritos.edu!dhw68k!felix!fritz!scotth From: scotth@felix.filenet.com (Scott Hopson) Newsgroups: ca.general,rec.autos,misc.invest Subject: Re: (Repost) The ONLY way to buy a car! Message-ID: <18598@fritz.filenet.com> Date: 26 Jun 92 14:13:53 GMT References: <2gql2ca.mzimmers@netcom.com> Reply-To: scotth@fritz.filenet.com (Scott Hopson) Organization: FileNet Corp., Costa Mesa, CA Lines: 21 In article <2gql2ca.mzimmers@netcom.com> mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes: >I paid $1200 over cost. The friend who >turned me onto Car Bargains recently got a BMW 325i for $495 over cost, Looks like you got ripped off, The dealer cost is an inflated value and even though might be on an invoice the dealers receives substantial rebates from the manufacturer for selling a car quickly. How do you think those dealers who advertise cars for a few dollars over cost ( usually less than $100 ) make any money. If you buy a consumers report magazine for around $2.00 you can see what the actual cost is minus most of the factory to dealer incentives. Also you can usually get a better deal if you go through the fleet manager. $1200 over cost is more then I've ever paid for a new car. Plus I did'nt need to pay $96.00 for someone else to do my foot work. -- Scott Hopson (scotth@filenet.com) "C is not a block-structured language in the sense of PL/1 or Algol -- K&R 4.8"